mikeyvet Posted 30, December 2014 Report Share Posted 30, December 2014 Bough this Clio for my daughter to learn on, but thinking it's a bit too much fun for her. My first car was a 1970 Renault 10S but I think this Clio is a lot nicer, it doesn't want to swap ends every corner you go around. Still has 15 inch wheels but the tyres are a bit wider than the 135's on the 10. And the driven wheels are same end as the motor, only at the front instead of the back. Look forward to looking after this car-it had really grabby brakes when I picked it up but a half dozen stops from 110 to 10 to bed the pads made it a lot better but still find them a little touchy-are they all like this? Also broke the heat control for the air con but found the fix on here already-will try and get to it soon. These euros really are a lot more fun than Japanese cars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dessy Posted 30, December 2014 Report Share Posted 30, December 2014 Sure it is for your daughter.........nice move though, I am already thinking about what fun 3rd car I can get when my kids are learning to drive. Fiesta ST's will be cheap when the time comes and my wife would have no idea it was the 'sporty' Fiesta. Enjoy the Clio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyvet Posted 30, December 2014 Author Report Share Posted 30, December 2014 My wife thinks the Clio is cute and zippy, just the thing for a teenage girl. Little does she know that it is really a hoon's car. May need to confiscate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R182 Posted 30, December 2014 Report Share Posted 30, December 2014 Welcome... great plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s9810588 Posted 30, December 2014 Report Share Posted 30, December 2014 Are those rims OZ Ultraleggera? Want to swap with OEM 16" 182 rims My car has very sensitive brakes too and light pedal pressure. And if your car is like mine, you'll grin and curse at it on regular basis too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyvet Posted 30, December 2014 Author Report Share Posted 30, December 2014 Yeah, Oz Ultraleggeras. I'd swap in a second but my daughter thinks the dark rims are the best part of the car. I reckon the ride is jiggly enough on 15's let alone 16's. I'm pretty used to the brakes now, when I first got it I just about went through the windscreen every low speed stop but since the half dozen crash stops that made the pads stink up and bed in it's a lot better, even able to heel and toe this morning without jerking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaughan Posted 31, December 2014 Report Share Posted 31, December 2014 I have two sons that have both got their licenses in the last couple of years. IMHO an automatic is the best to learn on and for them to do their license test. Get a manual and let them at it after they are on their green Ps. Don't sell the Clio RS though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wade Posted 31, December 2014 Report Share Posted 31, December 2014 I disagree, IMO opinion it should be compulsory for everyone to get a license in a manual. Most of us learnt to do so........if you can drive a manual you can drive and auto..... But not the otherway around This will of course become irrelevant over the next 15 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R182 Posted 31, December 2014 Report Share Posted 31, December 2014 ^ closely followed by not needing to steer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyvet Posted 31, December 2014 Author Report Share Posted 31, December 2014 My daughter is going to learn in a manual just like her father and mother and bigger sister. She has excellent coordination and fine motor skills and can already ride a motorcycle with gears and a clutch and not one but two brake levers. I believe being able to drive a manual engenders pride in driving skills and therefore a more involved driver. Automatics encourage being a mindless drone being carried passively along while paying more attention to an in car entertainment system downloading emails and twitter feeds. rather than paying attention to what is happening around you. Automatics are best left for the incompetant and the infirm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braymac Posted 7, January 2015 Report Share Posted 7, January 2015 I think learning in a manual taught me mechanical sympathy-you learn to carry out every action smoothly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My Name is Earl Posted 7, January 2015 Report Share Posted 7, January 2015 My daughter is going to learn in a manual just like her father and mother and bigger sister. She has excellent coordination and fine motor skills and can already ride a motorcycle with gears and a clutch and not one but two brake levers. I believe being able to drive a manual engenders pride in driving skills and therefore a more involved driver. Automatics encourage being a mindless drone being carried passively along while paying more attention to an in car entertainment system downloading emails and twitter feeds. rather than paying attention to what is happening around you. Automatics are best left for the incompetant and the infirm. early contender for post of the year right here! Saved to my notes on my phone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faeros Posted 7, January 2015 Report Share Posted 7, January 2015 Personally I agree, although the first 5-10 hours in an automatic to learn the road rules without also having to learn changing gears etc is another way to go. After those initial hours it's manual all the way. I didn't learn that way (all manual) but a friend did and he said it helped him a lot as he didn't have to think about everything all at once. If that makes any sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneaky Posted 7, January 2015 Report Share Posted 7, January 2015 ^^^^ this. my first driving on back roads where there was no traffic was in a manual, but the first few drives through suburban areas and heavier traffic was in an auto. once the lane changing, mirrors etc were under control it was back into the manual. also helped that the choise of cars was an auto v6 commodore or manual SS commodore - good reason to drive manual Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLUGGO33X Posted 7, January 2015 Report Share Posted 7, January 2015 My kids will all learn manual when the time comes. My first car on my L's was a manual, and as I had never driven a car before I had the previous owner deliver it to my house. Couple of laps around the block and I was good to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLUGGO33X Posted 7, January 2015 Report Share Posted 7, January 2015 Congrats on the car too, great choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsdamo Posted 7, January 2015 Report Share Posted 7, January 2015 Nice, lucky Daughter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt205 Posted 7, January 2015 Report Share Posted 7, January 2015 The biggest trick with manual is getting in early. My experience is a perception that gets built that manual is 'hard', they start comparing notes when they approach driving age and collectively come to the conclusion that they won't be able to do it. This starts with a friend who has numpty parents telling them it will be pointless and too hard for them to drive a manual. If you can teach them before they get a chance to hear the negative stories then it's no biggie. Another point is that there are bad teachers (parents) out there too, I remember a friend at school who's Dad taught her that she should never go over '2 on that dial', the dial she was referring to was the tacho, needless to say trying to drive around in a 80's 1.6l Ford Laser never exceeding '2' on the tacho was monotonous at best and pretty bloody dangerous to boot. Nice pickup though, shame your Daughter will rarely see it..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadrastu Posted 8, January 2015 Report Share Posted 8, January 2015 As Matt205 says, start them off early in a manual, get them over this misconception that it's easy to do it in an auto first then go for the manuals after. Being from the uk it's taught, by instructors not parents with bad habits and IF, only IF you really can't get the coordination then they'll look into auto. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaughan Posted 8, January 2015 Report Share Posted 8, January 2015 I've just put 2 kids through the license process. Both learned in auto and did the test in an auto (and passed first time). Once on their Ps let them learn to drive a manual. Learning a manual isn't hard, but learning to drive AND learning a manual is a big ask. The driving test is all about head-checks and other easy-to-fail-people stuff. Very little about good driving. You don't want them failing the test because they stalled at an intersection or missed a gear change. In NSW they need 120 hours logged driving. That'll screw the clutch. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rado Posted 8, January 2015 Report Share Posted 8, January 2015 The driving test is all about head-checks and other easy-to-fail-people stuff. Very little about good driving. You don't want them failing the test because they stalled at an intersection or missed a gear change. In NSW they need 120 hours logged driving. That'll screw the clutch. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk They can always do it again if they fail,its not hard.i got 100% on mine Clutch is easy replaceable and they are tough. I drove mine while i was learning and trashed it without my parents knowing. Drove it for the majority of my P time and it was the best thing ever. So glad i learned on manual couse auto really doesn't teach you anything. Each to their own when it comes to this but imo manual is the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faeros Posted 8, January 2015 Report Share Posted 8, January 2015 The driving test is all about head-checks and other easy-to-fail-people stuff. Very little about good driving. You don't want them failing the test because they stalled at an intersection or missed a gear change. In NSW they need 120 hours logged driving. That'll screw the clutch. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk They can always do it again if they fail,its not hard.i got 100% on mine Clutch is easy replaceable and they are tough. I drove mine while i was learning and trashed it without my parents knowing. Drove it for the majority of my P time and it was the best thing ever. So glad i learned on manual couse auto really doesn't teach you anything. Each to their own when it comes to this but imo manual is the way. In the end it all depends on how easy the child in question (or any child for that matter) picks up the skill. Another option not mentioned above is the route my "lovely" mother chose for me. "You learn manual or you don't learn at all" The rest is history haha Opinions on what to do will always differ from each individual. Nevertheless good luck!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wade Posted 8, January 2015 Report Share Posted 8, January 2015 I've just put 2 kids through the license process. Both learned in auto and did the test in an auto (and passed first time). Once on their Ps let them learn to drive a manual. Learning a manual isn't hard, but learning to drive AND learning a manual is a big ask. The driving test is all about head-checks and other easy-to-fail-people stuff. Very little about good driving. You don't want them failing the test because they stalled at an intersection or missed a gear change. In NSW they need 120 hours logged driving. That'll screw the clutch. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk So your kids are on public roads and learning to drive a manual without L plates on?? IMO if you learn in an auto you should have to go back on L's to get manual. When I was 20 I had a mate who did auto then later manual ........ and he was an absolute menace on the roads for about 6months As for clutches, I think that is the responsibility of the instructor to keep screaming at them "DON'T SLIP THE FKN CLUTCH !!!!!" (BTW I'm available for lessons ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R182 Posted 8, January 2015 Report Share Posted 8, January 2015 ^ are you available in Melbourne Wade? I'd love a lesson in that supercharged MX5 thing with the top down and you yelling DON'T DROP THE F'N CLUTCH! bahahaha... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob 240 Posted 8, January 2015 Report Share Posted 8, January 2015 1] My first car was a 1970 Renault 10S 2] These euros really are a lot more fun than Japanese cars 1] ME TOO !!! i've driven one recently with a view to purchase but it wasnt as good as i remembered..... 2 ] oh yeah, aint that the TRUTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaughan Posted 8, January 2015 Report Share Posted 8, January 2015 I've just put 2 kids through the license process. Both learned in auto and did the test in an auto (and passed first time). Once on their Ps let them learn to drive a manual. Learning a manual isn't hard, but learning to drive AND learning a manual is a big ask. The driving test is all about head-checks and other easy-to-fail-people stuff. Very little about good driving. You don't want them failing the test because they stalled at an intersection or missed a gear change. In NSW they need 120 hours logged driving. That'll screw the clutch. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk So your kids are on public roads and learning to drive a manual without L plates on?? IMO if you learn in an auto you should have to go back on L's to get manual. If you do the test on auto then red Ps license is marked auto. They can drive a manual if supervised by a full license driver (no need to display the L plates but must show the red Ps). They can re-do the test in a manual while on red Ps or just wait, the auto restriction is lifted on getting the green Ps regardless. Most people get the manual thing after a couple of hours practice. I just don't think they should also be learning the road rules and other basic stuff at the same time. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R182 Posted 8, January 2015 Report Share Posted 8, January 2015 I said I wanted to start in a manual. My dad said that in that case we had to go to an empty carpark on a Sunday (shops used to be closed ... Lol)... but I got it after a few laps and drove home! I then drove them nuts wanting to drive every day for the two years on my L's. There's a lot going on when you drive, I'm with the starting in a manual crowd ... but as someone said above it'll be irrelevant by the time my kids get there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trixie Posted 8, January 2015 Report Share Posted 8, January 2015 If my child couldn't work out how to operate a gearbox and clutch after half an hour I'd be dubious of their ability to manage any of the basic controls of the car in the longer term. Manual all the way for my boy, including heel-and-toe. Now we've done the 120 hours we're practicing handbrake turns and J-turns at the top of the street. Who needs professional instruction for Ls? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cairnsy Posted 8, January 2015 Report Share Posted 8, January 2015 Have four kids that have been able to get their licenses over the last 5 to 8 years. Had a big hand in teaching them to drive and have to agree with Matt205 that it would have been better if I had some instructor training, before hand, on how to do it. My original intention was for them to learn on manual but as it turned out, circumstances dictated they learn on auto, which disappointed me. The youngest now has his own manual, the rest drive autos. One of my daughters friends, whose Mum was a driving instructor, said her Mum wouldn't teach her to drive until she could change a wheel. How many kids can do that? Mine included. It seems the focus was just on passing 'the test'. As far as I know, none of them received any 'emergency control' training, even from the professional instructors they had for 3 or 4 hours prior to doing their test. Passing the test is the main thrust, doesn't matter you have no idea on skid control or emergency braking. The upshot of all this is I would love to get them thru some advanced driver training to learn some of this in a safe environment. To late to learn in a slide, in the middle of a corner, heading toward the shrubbery. You would think with the revenue our governments get from the motorist they would be more willing to push some towards more affordable driver training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R182 Posted 8, January 2015 Report Share Posted 8, January 2015 The upshot of all this is I would love to get them thru some advanced driver training to learn some of this in a safe environment. Some insurance companies will help you out or give you a discount if you've done this sort of training. Even for the non-enthusiasts you might get away with a training day as a gift? I thoroughly enjoyed the ones I've done but more importantly I found the instructors made it really quite entertaining (as well as educational) for those that weren't car enthusiasts. I mean who doesn't love have a laugh at a Ford Territory trying to negotiate a slalom course as speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cairnsy Posted 8, January 2015 Report Share Posted 8, January 2015 Postby R182 on Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:06 am cairnsy wrote: The upshot of all this is I would love to get them thru some advanced driver training to learn some of this in a safe environment. Some insurance companies will help you out or give you a discount if you've done this sort of training. Even for the non-enthusiasts you might get away with a training day as a gift? I thoroughly enjoyed the ones I've done but more importantly I found the instructors made it really quite entertaining (as well as educational) for those that weren't car enthusiasts. I mean who doesn't love have a laugh at a Ford Territory trying to negotiate a slalom course as speed. Thanks R182 for your input. Have been aware of this but the kids haven't had cars that have warranted full comprehensive insurance, due to the cost, and me having to pay. (last time I checked, premiums for FCI on a car worth 3 to 5 K, were north of $800 for kids under 25) The older 2 are handling their own now, thank heaven). Only being 3rd Party nock means companies don't seem to offer the training you mention. I think there is an attitude amongst the 'experts', who influence these things, that you can't have young drivers learning this stuff, it might encourage them to 'hoon around' on our roads. Doesn't matter that they may also learn something that could save their lives. As mentioned before, if our politicians would commit a bit more of the revenue they get, from the motoring public, to affordable driver training, it would not only save lives but take a load off our medical and health care systems. It is important that skills AND 'attitude' be taught together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braymac Posted 9, January 2015 Report Share Posted 9, January 2015 Defensive driving courses are anything but car control centric. Major misconception. The practical tests they do show participants that even with practice and preparedness, your vehicle has limits and statistically, if you find yourself in an emergency situation, you're stuffed anyway. Everything I was taught was about avoidence and alertness, etc. As well as correct driving position so that you have the right control on the car. This might seem ad odds with what some of you guys think, but I think this is the perfect approach. Car control is absolutely important but this stuff comes first, and imbueing them with the idea that they drive an RS or *insert capable car here* is probably gonna make them think they're bulletproof and untouchable. Fwiw I did my course with Murcotts. And even my father (I was on my learners at the time so he came), who has driven 50,000km a year most of his working life learned a lot from it. I don't discount the value of car control, not one bit, but give them the tools to avoid these situations as much as humanly possible well before you give them the idea that they can handle or brake their way out of anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt205 Posted 9, January 2015 Report Share Posted 9, January 2015 Good point Braymac, there is a huge difference between 'Defensive' and 'Advanced' Courses, the former being much more about fundamentals like how to sit in a car, set mirrors, etc etc, the stuff that really should be taught that isn't. Even basic things like hand position on the steering wheel is rarely passed on properly by professional 'Instructors' let alone Mum or Dad (for the record quarter to 3 people not 10 to 2). If there is 1 single skill that everyone can pass on to their kids it should be spatial awareness. There's a really good excersize that I do regularly when I'm driving and also pass on to the many kids of friends/relo's that have had me spend time with their newly licensed children. As you're driving along do a commentary of what's happening around you, in your head not necessarily out loud, "Silver car about to turn out of side street on the left up ahead, red hatchback with green P's behind me on the right 3 cars back, approaching traffic lights, traffic building up on left and right side of intersection may indicate light change, blue car in the right lane turning up ahead, Car Parked on Nature strip 200 meters ahead could be radar" etc etc. If you get into this habit and do it regularly you will be amazed at how it opens up the world around you, you will be much more aware of whats going on, you won't have to do the constant looking over your shoulder when changing lanes, you are less likely to get done by speed camera's be it mobile or fixed (not that I'm advocating speeding), give it a try. The other one I like is to not use my indicators when not necessary. "What does he mean" I hear you ask, well if you come to an intersection and there's no other car in sight why would you indicate? Because it's the law and that was what you are taught? But are you indicating because it's 'the law' or just out of habit? If you have good spatial awareness then there a many occasions where you simply don't have to indicate as there's no one around to see it. If you get booked for "not indicating" when trying this it just goes to show you weren't actually paying enough attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R182 Posted 9, January 2015 Report Share Posted 9, January 2015 Yes, there's usually different levels. You start with defensive driving and then move up to car control or performance driving (or whatever they want to call it) then further if you wish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cairnsy Posted 9, January 2015 Report Share Posted 9, January 2015 Agree, very much, with all that. Have tended to think that most of it comes under the heading of PERSONAL ATTITUDE and INVOLVEMENT. My 'dear old Dad' used to say that every time you go out you should learn something new and that if you think you know it all that is when you will have an accident. Also said that 'driving is an art'. Was very 'chuffed' when number 2 son returned from a trip to Sydney and said that he had been aware of his situation in the traffic and all the cars around him. Mind you not so much a little time later when he got booked for PCA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wade Posted 9, January 2015 Report Share Posted 9, January 2015 I agree with all the awareness stuff. I actually nearly always run the internal dialogue through my mind when driving, noting every car and pedestrian that is about to jump out in front of me, the comparative speed of cars around me etc....... Don't even think about it now, I just do it out of habit. I also tend to watch the wheels of the cars in the side streets instead of the car itself. You will notice the wheels move before you notice the car, and that can sometimes be the time you need to avoid an accident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R182 Posted 9, January 2015 Report Share Posted 9, January 2015 ... and watch a few cars ahead, not just the one immediately in front of you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mase Posted 12, January 2015 Report Share Posted 12, January 2015 What a popular thread I learnt manual in an R16TS in paddocks on grassy hills initially going fishing. Then on the dirt back roads up in the mountains behind Lake Eildon Victoria up Big River way on Kms of tight windy dirt roads. Dad had me hill starting on dirt on silly inclines and then getting a total feel for a connection between all the main inputs to the driving experience. One thing I still do today ( little voice inside my head ) that dad said was "know where your front wheels are". I can can target a 'Smartie' on an tight corner with the outer edge of my inner tyre at speed because of that teaching (also as a 15 yr old on Big River Road to steer poorly meant certain death ha ha ). My experience with learners and people who drive auto is they seem absent minded and lacking skills in general and after too longer time become apathetic to observational skills and higher level driving. I am biased tho. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apple3337 Posted 12, January 2015 Report Share Posted 12, January 2015 I've just read "How To Drive" by Ben Collins aka The Stig. I found it very informative and would recommend it to all drivers who value the skill of driving. Anyone else out there read it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wade Posted 12, January 2015 Report Share Posted 12, January 2015 Do you get a "I am the stig" tshirt if you do ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R182 Posted 12, January 2015 Report Share Posted 12, January 2015 Do you get a "I am the stig" tshirt if you do ?? You'd have to be a faux-Stig. There can be only one Stig ... or maybe that's only two Stigs ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mase Posted 12, January 2015 Report Share Posted 12, January 2015 Do you get a "I am the stig" tshirt if you do ?? Maybe stigmata? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaughan Posted 13, January 2015 Report Share Posted 13, January 2015 … One thing I still do today ( little voice inside my head ) that dad said was "know where your front wheels are". All the more important with FWD cars. All good comments, but lets not confuse "learn how to drive properly" with "passing the license test". Is actually stopping at a stop sign considered good driving? Or anal retentive OCD "rules are for the guidance of wise men" etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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