mschu7 Posted 18, June 2014 Report Share Posted 18, June 2014 Hi all, Just want to say "hi" and my 2 cents along the way... About me - I've raced in State level competition driving a V8, owned an E36 3.2 M3, in my former life a BMW tech. I'm on my way to securing some bebop 17's for track day fun ...car is daily driver but purchased to fulfil both roles. Will let you all know how I get in with lap times etc. I have to say I am a convert! Great car! Only negative is seating and steering wheel adjustability - I'm 6ft 5in. ...in go my Velo's on the recaro rails - will post pics when done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkie86 Posted 18, June 2014 Report Share Posted 18, June 2014 Welcome and congrats! Can't wait to see the seats where are you located? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apple3337 Posted 19, June 2014 Report Share Posted 19, June 2014 Wow! What a change from your previous cars to the Clio. I'm keen to hear what it is about the Clio that won you over. Welcome BTW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mschu7 Posted 19, June 2014 Author Report Share Posted 19, June 2014 Welcome and congrats! Can't wait to see the seats where are you located? Thanks walkie86. I'm in Eltham - VIC. I should probably clarify -"seat" not seats... intend to run the standard 3 point, resistance trick a very simple mod, if anyone needs further info I'll be sure to provide a tutorial ...had to do this few times on the BM's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted 19, June 2014 Report Share Posted 19, June 2014 Great to see another 200 owner, welcome to the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mschu7 Posted 19, June 2014 Author Report Share Posted 19, June 2014 Wow! What a change from your previous cars to the Clio. I'm keen to hear what it is about the Clio that won you over.Welcome BTW. Hi apple3337, Well I've probably owned 25 cars in my 30 years of existence, coming from a German background mainly from the motherland . The M3 is a brilliant car and I love RWD, however, hatchbacks are always the ones you seems to steer at 11/10ths ! The chuck-ability, the response, the rawness, the braking, the overall "feel" are all from great 90's cars (except brakes! Lol) - yet it is more polished, new and comes with a warranty if that makes sense? Every drive is truly an experience to savour... blipping the throttle on downshifts needlessly just because you can... isn't that what it's all about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apple3337 Posted 19, June 2014 Report Share Posted 19, June 2014 Wow! What a change from your previous cars to the Clio. I'm keen to hear what it is about the Clio that won you over.Welcome BTW. Hi apple3337, Well I've probably owned 25 cars in my 30 years of existence, coming from a German background mainly from the motherland . The M3 is a brilliant car and I love RWD, however, hatchbacks are always the ones you seems to steer at 11/10ths ! The chuck-ability, the response, the rawness, the braking, the overall "feel" are all from great 90's cars (except brakes! Lol) - yet it is more polished, new and comes with a warranty if that makes sense? Every drive is truly an experience to savour... blipping the throttle on downshifts needlessly just because you can... isn't that what it's all about? Yep, you've nailed it right there! I had a Clio, bought something more user friendly, but miss the fun aspect too much. When I find the right Clio I'll get it. I'm using the excuse that I need a manual to teach my daughter to drive in 12 months. Ha ha!! I found the Clio a bit laggy under acceleration but that cornering is ridiculous fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mschu7 Posted 19, June 2014 Author Report Share Posted 19, June 2014 Yeah absolutely, it certainly depends on circumstances with a car such as the clio...certainly not great if you have to cart a family around...for them anyway! Well get yourself in to a 200, much better tractability than the 197 which you previously owned, very surprised actually by its linear curve. ...it's actually funny, it's the only car I've owned whereby I have no true desire to mod-it...because it can just about cope with anything you throw at it (from every perspective), and I think there's really not much gain to had anyway - not unless you focus on making it a one trick pony which can be done with basically anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apple3337 Posted 20, June 2014 Report Share Posted 20, June 2014 I got another one for you mschu7. There is always friendly banter about Megane vs Clio on here. Why did you go Clio over Megane? I've been looking at used Meganes and they look great value at the moment. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mschu7 Posted 20, June 2014 Author Report Share Posted 20, June 2014 Hi, Good question, and honestly I drove all 3 ...the last of the mk3, the mk4 cup and Megane Cup 265. They are all so very different, the mk4 in all honestly probably the best overall (I am a fan if technology, and for all the negative comments RE the Dual Clutch in the new RS, I thought its function was brilliant - providing you manual shift and particularly in RS setting. (Used to test many M3, M5 and M6 SMG, obviously they were far less user friendly, BUT when you understand the system and it's engagement then you can really be very smooth - and freakin amazing shift in race mode!) So the Mk4 was addictive and packaged me far more effectively (seating and steering now reach adjustable), however I knew that its fun would wear off over time (comparatively) to the Mk3. So mk3 Clio now vs Megane. Having first driven the Mk3, then Mk4, then Megane, I was really expecting to be blown away by the 265 ...BUT... I honestly wasn't. Now to all 265 owners this is not a negative, it's mainly because quite frankly I've driven far faster vehicles that serve many more purposes (E46 M3) and I can work on them myself with great relationships within the dealer network. So, to pay $37-$39k driveaway i honestly would buy an E46 M3 (because i can fix them - otherwise i wouldn't). My situation was i needed a daily driver, the Megane's clutch was over sprung pedal, general fit and finish avg. plus higher maintenance + fuel costs did not add up vs the mk3 Clio. Why - because the Clio felt more solid (better fit and finish), had a better engine note, felt lighter on its feet - more chuckable, amazing braking (although both were brilliant), and is more usable as a hatch. the clutch is just magic, general wear and tear far less (high rpm low torque engine Vs forced induction - not a fan of turbo's generally - many problems as Km's add up AND not as fun as ringing the neck of a great NA engine). Also, the general visability is amazing which adds to confidence and general sense of occassion. The grin never leaves my face. Driveaway price $29k with 1100km's on clock - Recaro's, RS Monitor, Metallic Blk - had me won on first site frankly. Now I've written an essay and probably haven't helped at all lol. Put it this way - what gets you genuinely excited when you drive both? Is bigger always better? NO it isn't - certainly not on the road... Yes you can be faster in a straight line, and on the track that is a big deal, However I estimate 90% of people can't even get close to the real limits of their cars (every track session it is a clear observation) and so straight line speed is how they get off. The Clio has an edge, rawness, a holistic harmony of brakes , suspension, steering and engine all in tune with one another which is just so FUN. If I want a fast race car, I'll buy a Megane 265 ...or a Turbo Skyline and save a sh@tload! - joking guys - can't stand them ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apple3337 Posted 20, June 2014 Report Share Posted 20, June 2014 Well you may have set a record for the longest post here! Well written and thanks. After owning my Clio for a while I test drove the Megane. Admittedly it was a short drive but I got out underwhelmed. I told the dealer I thought I preferred the Clio. I thought he'd look at me as if I had two heads but no...he agreed!!! WTF?? OK, so now do I get a 2008 - 2010 197 for $15,000 or get a 200 Cup for $20,000 plus? I don't know if the differences are all that much. The folks on here might like to comment on that one. If you want to see a clip that sums up the Clio 3, watch this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mschu7 Posted 20, June 2014 Author Report Share Posted 20, June 2014 Thanks mate ...can I say that clip is saved to favourites on my PC, must have watched it 100 times!! "Wow!". Only problem is a can't find a Focus RS to test it against...or maybe we can just have some fun with our 265 boys "next door"! Lol ...I'm sure I've already started to gain a few enemies! Seriously I agree, the Megane really punches above its weight, is great in its own right however in my humble opinion doesn't manage greatness as a package. RE 197 V 200 ... It really depends on your financial decision. The last in any model is always better (sometimes lemons are produced no matter what, but in general this rule applies). If you set yourself a budget of $20k, then spend the $20k and be wholly satisfied... never ever go away thinking "maybe I should have...". For me the 200 offers a package whereas the 197 is more one dimensional. As styling is subjective it may or may not be a factor for you. For me it looks modern, in balance and the changes to the rear diffuser just top it off. On the power train, the cylinder head revisions really are noticeable (I have driven a 197 btw) down low, and in ever more pita traffic situations it's nice to idle off the line, short shift to 3rd then 5th and not have row the gearbox. These are details, but little details add up to become major considerations. So, go with your gut! Drive a 200 and then a 197...your gut will tell you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosey Posted 20, June 2014 Report Share Posted 20, June 2014 Nice thread, fellas! mschu7, you've pretty much nailed it IMHO. Faster is not always more fun. I was fortunate enough to enjoy a couple of sessions in RS cars at Silverstone UK a couple of years ago. It was pouring with rain on the day. Drove a Meg III RS250 in the morning which was great fun. LSD was awesome coming out of corners and as the tyres hit standing water (lots of it!) at 100mph down the Hanger Straight. A fantastic car. Then I got into the Clio III RS200 into the afternoon and it was even wetter than the morning session. By the second or third corner I had a MASSIVE grin from ear to ear. Almost spilt my helmet, I reckon. Ultimately not quite as quick (untimed sessions) but that little car was so steerable on the throttle. It would go through a corner backwards if you asked it to!!! So much FUN!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUSGO Posted 21, June 2014 Report Share Posted 21, June 2014 Great intro and explanation of the charms of the 200. I know how you feel. Welcome to the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mschu7 Posted 21, June 2014 Author Report Share Posted 21, June 2014 Hi Moosie, Well certainly I'm envious! Silverstone in any car would just be brilliant! ...steering it through backwards, yet to do that but I'm sure it's possible! Actually one of the most predictable and lively cars I've ever owned was the VW VR6. It's limits are far lower than the 200, however they share more similarities from a driving perspective than many would expect. ...I'm really itching to get down to Sandown now - just waiting on my set of bebop wheels with semi slicks to do the job! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mschu7 Posted 21, June 2014 Author Report Share Posted 21, June 2014 Apologies "Moosey" - it's late! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosey Posted 21, June 2014 Report Share Posted 21, June 2014 Ha!Ha! No worries. A few of us will be down at Sandown today. Pop in and say g'day if you're free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apple3337 Posted 22, June 2014 Report Share Posted 22, June 2014 Ha!Ha! No worries. A few of us will be down at Sandown today. Pop in and say g'day if you're free. Hey Moosey, I'm from Melbourne. What's the story with newbies getting into track work? I've got no interest in racing but when I finally get around to buying a new Clio 3, I'd like to blast around with an instructor. Another thing. Is there a Victorian sub group of Clio 3 lovers on this forum? How cool would it be to get a whole bunch of Clios together?! Have any of you guys done hill climbing or Motorkhana? Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mschu7 Posted 22, June 2014 Author Report Share Posted 22, June 2014 Ha!Ha! No worries. A few of us will be down at Sandown today. Pop in and say g'day if you're free. Unfortunately I cannot make it today... Definitely the next outing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mschu7 Posted 22, June 2014 Author Report Share Posted 22, June 2014 Great intro and explanation of the charms of the 200. I know how you feel. Welcome to the forum. Cheers BUSGO, I look forward in sharing my findings and getting to know all the other petrol heads on here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosey Posted 23, June 2014 Report Share Posted 23, June 2014 Hi guys. No sub group in MEL for Clio 3 owners. This model is pretty exclusive nationally already Check out the Club Motorsport section for details on events. MSCA in Vic runs Come and Try Days in conjuction with a Supersprint. Could be perfect for you to get a taste alongside an instructor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apple3337 Posted 23, June 2014 Report Share Posted 23, June 2014 Hi guys. No sub group in MEL for Clio 3 owners. This model is pretty exclusive nationally already Check out the Club Motorsport section for details on events. MSCA in Vic runs Come and Try Days in conjuction with a Supersprint. Could be perfect for you to get a taste alongside an instructor. Thanks mate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mschu7 Posted 24, June 2014 Author Report Share Posted 24, June 2014 Ha!Ha! No worries. A few of us will be down at Sandown today. Pop in and say g'day if you're free. Hey Moosey, I'm from Melbourne. What's the story with newbies getting into track work? I've got no interest in racing but when I finally get around to buying a new Clio 3, I'd like to blast around with an instructor. Another thing. Is there a Victorian sub group of Clio 3 lovers on this forum? How cool would it be to get a whole bunch of Clios together?! Have any of you guys done hill climbing or Motorkhana? Cheers. Hi apple3337, re Hill climbs, every time I depress the starter and head through Eltham! Lol No seriously, if you want to do some track work, I think us Melbourne Clio 3 owners should look at track days together. RE lessons from an instructor, I am absolutely happy to help you here... and this is not intended as a "i am better than you" to others on here - I am aware I've only been on here 2mins! I have experience in this area Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apple3337 Posted 24, June 2014 Report Share Posted 24, June 2014 Hi mrshu, that's very good of you to offer that. What have you got in mind? Now I gotta get me a Clio!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave200 Posted 25, June 2014 Report Share Posted 25, June 2014 I miss my car so much I hate reading threads like this!!! GAHHHHHHHHH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apple3337 Posted 25, June 2014 Report Share Posted 25, June 2014 I miss my car so much I hate reading threads like this!!! GAHHHHHHHHH! What is it with Clio's doing their owners heads in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave200 Posted 25, June 2014 Report Share Posted 25, June 2014 I'm not sure Andrew. I never really wanted to sell it, but it had to make way for a baby due in November. Maybe I will get another in a few years time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mschu7 Posted 26, June 2014 Author Report Share Posted 26, June 2014 Hi mrshu, that's very good of you to offer that. What have you got in mind? Now I gotta get me a Clio!! Hi apple3377, EOFY! Sorry for the late reply. Well in terms of passenger or instructor sessions, these are frequent in the Sprints or just an Advanced Open Day whereby you can come for a few flying laps in the Clio and (if you're willing) then take your Focus out and I'll navigate you through (you driving of course). The Focus will be good fun, good chassis and great torque being Diesel. Certainly I'll need to look in to it but let's put out there and make a plan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mschu7 Posted 26, June 2014 Author Report Share Posted 26, June 2014 I'm not sure Andrew. I never really wanted to sell it, but it had to make way for a baby due in November. Maybe I will get another in a few years time. Yeah, I sympathise! Sometimes we have to do these things... No matter, I'm sure you'll get back in to it when the time is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apple3337 Posted 27, June 2014 Report Share Posted 27, June 2014 Hi mrshu, that's very good of you to offer that. What have you got in mind? Now I gotta get me a Clio!! Hi apple3377, EOFY! Sorry for the late reply. Well in terms of passenger or instructor sessions, these are frequent in the Sprints or just an Advanced Open Day whereby you can come for a few flying laps in the Clio and (if you're willing) then take your Focus out and I'll navigate you through (you driving of course). The Focus will be good fun, good chassis and great torque being Diesel. Certainly I'll need to look in to it but let's put out there and make a plan Hi mrshu. Sounds like good. fun! A flying lap in your Clio and laps in my car sound good. That will give me an idea if I like it or not. Very good of you to offer me that opportunity so thanks for that. Let me know further info re dates as it comes to hand. I'm still browsing carsales. Quite a few on there. Prices for good 2012 second hand Clio's are higher than Meganes! Who would have thought? After July 1 I'll get a bit more serious as I can claim the car for work purposes so I'll roll the Focus over into the new FY. Lucky me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apple3337 Posted 3, July 2014 Report Share Posted 3, July 2014 Hey mschu, I've put a deposit on a new Clio 3 interstate. I'll have it in a few weeks I hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mschu7 Posted 23, July 2014 Author Report Share Posted 23, July 2014 Hi Andrew, Sorry I didn't respond to your message sooner...been offline due to work commitments. ...so we have another RS owner!! Good on you my friend! I know the one, I was eying it off on Carsales, nice looking bit of kit So, by now I imagine you've taken delivery? Will you be attending Winton in September? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apple3337 Posted 23, July 2014 Report Share Posted 23, July 2014 Hi Andrew,Sorry I didn't respond to your message sooner...been offline due to work commitments. ...so we have another RS owner!! Good on you my friend! I know the one, I was eying it off on Carsales, nice looking bit of kit So, by now I imagine you've taken delivery? Will you be attending Winton in September? Good to hear from you again. Thought you'd gone missing... I haven't got it yet. I've booked a flight and ferry for Aug 9. I am busy doing house sort of stuff and the car has to wait. I've never driven the 200 so it will be interesting to compare. I'm not sure about Winton. Is it open to track newbies? Anyway I'll have to see how it works out since I'm a family man and all that. BTW I picked it up for 25k plus ORC. I thought that was a pretty good deal. Hopefully the car is in good nick! I'm looking forward to the drive from Launceston to Devonport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crownleyian Posted 23, July 2014 Report Share Posted 23, July 2014 Sorry my friend for the late welcome and compliment on great choice of car. I hope to meet you at the OzRS Nationals in September. I love my 265 but I agree with you the RS200 is just like hardcore sex! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mschu7 Posted 29, July 2014 Author Report Share Posted 29, July 2014 Hi Andrew,Sorry I didn't respond to your message sooner...been offline due to work commitments. ...so we have another RS owner!! Good on you my friend! I know the one, I was eying it off on Carsales, nice looking bit of kit So, by now I imagine you've taken delivery? Will you be attending Winton in September? Good to hear from you again. Thought you'd gone missing... I haven't got it yet. I've booked a flight and ferry for Aug 9. I am busy doing house sort of stuff and the car has to wait. I've never driven the 200 so it will be interesting to compare. I'm not sure about Winton. Is it open to track newbies? Anyway I'll have to see how it works out since I'm a family man and all that. BTW I picked it up for 25k plus ORC. I thought that was a pretty good deal. Hopefully the car is in good nick! I'm looking forward to the drive from Launceston to Devonport. Hi Andrew, Yeah I might re name myself the Phantom...I'm struggling for free time atm! ...you must be itching for the car now - Under 2 weeks away! $25k + Orc is a great deal , considering these were at one stage near $40k vehicles! RE Winton, you can simply get a level 2 speed licence through CAMS if you wish...cost is something like $70. All you need to do is join an accredited car club that hosts track days etc. very minimal cost involved. OR, just come along for the drives and be a spectator at Winton...there may be passenger lap sessions? I'm not sure on this though - will check with Moosey. Can't wait to hear your feedback on the car btw! P.S. When you get it, change the oil straight away (I believe it has 8k on the odo?) for something like Helix Ultra 5w-40 - reasonably priced and cannot fault under all conditions. I would also change the gearbox oil for Fuchs Sintofluid 75w80 full syn. Preventative maintenance my friend, and with these gearboxes a very cheap investment to what can occur! You'll be amazed on the number of metallic findings after the run in period! PM if you need instructions on what to do and oil quantities etc. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apple3337 Posted 3, August 2014 Report Share Posted 3, August 2014 Hi Chris. I'm not sure about Winton. Do you know what exactly they do for the track day? IE: Races/hot laps? I'm thinking I might be better off doing a training day at Sandown. Your thoughts? Cheers. A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speka Posted 4, August 2014 Report Share Posted 4, August 2014 There is definitely no "racing" at Winton!! Cars are set onto the track in small groups based on criteria such as vehicle performance and driver "confidence". So if you are a "newbie" you will be grouped with other like drivers so that you won't be stuck with seasoned drivers who will be much faster than you!! I ran at Winton in 2012 and it is a very safe yet enjoyable track to drive and is a good way to ease yourself in as there is not pressure or expectations of lap times etc, although the ones trying to claim "the nuts" keep a close eye on lap times!! It is a great day out and is a good way to learn the capabilities of yourself and your vehicle. I cant wait to do it again next month! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apple3337 Posted 4, August 2014 Report Share Posted 4, August 2014 Thanks speka. Good feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaje2407 Posted 4, August 2014 Report Share Posted 4, August 2014 Hi All, Have had my Clio Sports III for nearly 12 months now but have just joined the Forum for the first time. Love my car and have had a lot of fun in it so far. The Arkropovic exhaust sings a wonderful tune and has helped to make the car so much more. Hope to learn a lot from this forum to make my toy even better. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apple3337 Posted 4, August 2014 Report Share Posted 4, August 2014 Hi All, Have had my Clio Sports III for nearly 12 months now but have just joined the Forum for the first time. Love my car and have had a lot of fun in it so far. The Arkropovic exhaust sings a wonderful tune and has helped to make the car so much more. Hope to learn a lot from this forum to make my toy even better. Jim Welcome Jim. Post some pics under Clio 3 or members ride if you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbnut Posted 4, August 2014 Report Share Posted 4, August 2014 Hi All, Have had my Clio Sports III for nearly 12 months now but have just joined the Forum for the first time. Love my car and have had a lot of fun in it so far. The Arkropovic exhaust sings a wonderful tune and has helped to make the car so much more. Hope to learn a lot from this forum to make my toy even better. Jim Welcome Jim, you should throw up a build thread So which is it, 197 or 200? I've had my 197 for a little over 12 months and have the same exhaust... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosey Posted 5, August 2014 Report Share Posted 5, August 2014 So are you guys coming to the Nationals next month. Clio III's are most welcome, being the coolest of all RS cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apple3337 Posted 5, August 2014 Report Share Posted 5, August 2014 So are you guys coming to the Nationals next month. Clio III's are most welcome, being the coolest of all RS cars. So let me get this straight. This is all you need: 1/ A helmet. 2/ Cotton clothes. 3/ AASA licence. (Buy on the day). 4/ Tuition is provided. A couple more questions: 1/ Can passengers go in the car on the track? IE can I take someone aged 14 as a passenger? 2/ Can I hitch a ride with someone else round the track? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosey Posted 5, August 2014 Report Share Posted 5, August 2014 So let me get this straight. This is all you need: 1/ A helmet. YES 2/ Cotton clothes. YES 3/ AASA licence. (Buy on the day). YES 4/ Tuition is provided. Not exactly/officially, but there are enough experienced people at the Nats to assist in this area. A couple more questions: 1/ Can passengers go in the car on the track? IE can I take someone aged 14 as a passenger? YES, they need to sign in and pay to be a passenger, 14 YO might be an issue. 2/ Can I hitch a ride with someone else round the track? YES Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbnut Posted 5, August 2014 Report Share Posted 5, August 2014 I cannot, should be a go for next year though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaje2407 Posted 6, August 2014 Report Share Posted 6, August 2014 Hi All, Have had my Clio Sports III for nearly 12 months now but have just joined the Forum for the first time. Love my car and have had a lot of fun in it so far. The Arkropovic exhaust sings a wonderful tune and has helped to make the car so much more. Hope to learn a lot from this forum to make my toy even better. Jim Welcome Jim, you should throw up a build thread So which is it, 197 or 200? I've had my 197 for a little over 12 months and have the same exhaust... Clio Sorts 200 Cup RS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.