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Fuel? What's best for an rs?

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23 minutes ago, Rene said:

What an aggressive I’m right little Vegemite, always wants to be right.

Oil Industry if you must know, personally responsible for handling billions of litres of the stuff.

I don’t need to go into long spiels about the testing etc. Just think of the consequences of putting one thing on the bowser and selling something of a lesser standard else and you will know what you say is crap. The converse can occur occasionally where you may get 98 out of a 95 bowser.

Also as I’ve mentioned previously there have been shonks in the industry who didn’t do what they should and from their bowsers you could get anything.

End of conversation.


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Sorry, what did I miss? I thought you were being pretty aggro, I was just curious as to what the reason for your somewhat abrupt assertion was... Thought I asked nicely...?

Still not seeing anything that supports your claim though? Any publicly available reports from independent testing of fuel from retail sources?

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15 minutes ago, apple3337 said:

I'd really like to know more:

  1. About the person.  IE their actual job.
  2. How often and how many servos get tested.
  3. More details on test results.
  4. Why is 95 RON OK when 98 is not?
  5. What happens if the companies sell misrepresented fuel? Are they penalised?

Sorry, no can do on the name etc on a public forum without his ok. 
 

That’s fine, just relaying what I heard - make up your own mind. For me the lack of a standard is good enough for me to apply some cynicism about what is a heavily marketed and marked up product as opposed to what they’re legally required to provide. If you’re happy to accept the marketing at face value no worries. 
 

95 is the minimum grade fuel in many countries (we are unusual in still having shitty 91 grade...) so it’s mandated that is be provided. It’s a very very very small  number of specialist cars “required” to run 98 (some STis I think?) but to meet the needs of “consumers” 95 is it - and hence regulated. 98 is just a “premium” product designed to make more money. I wonder if our industry friend can say what the profit margin is on each grade?

There are statutory penalties I believe for failing to meet 91 and 95, but for 98 it only needs to meet the requirements of 95 legally speaking. As I understand it anyway - if anyone has a better familiarity with the Fuel Quality Standards Act 2000 and wants to correct me than I’m all ears.

For me - 98 never presented any improvements in cars I’ve used and I’m ok using the fuel it was designed to use. 

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2 hours ago, Haakon said:

Sorry, no can do on the name etc on a public forum without his ok. 
 

That’s fine, just relaying what I heard - make up your own mind. For me the lack of a standard is good enough for me to apply some cynicism about what is a heavily marketed and marked up product as opposed to what they’re legally required to provide. If you’re happy to accept the marketing at face value no worries. 
 

95 is the minimum grade fuel in many countries (we are unusual in still having shitty 91 grade...) so it’s mandated that is be provided. It’s a very very very small  number of specialist cars “required” to run 98 (some STis I think?) but to meet the needs of “consumers” 95 is it - and hence regulated. 98 is just a “premium” product designed to make more money. I wonder if our industry friend can say what the profit margin is on each grade?

There are statutory penalties I believe for failing to meet 91 and 95, but for 98 it only needs to meet the requirements of 95 legally speaking. As I understand it anyway - if anyone has a better familiarity with the Fuel Quality Standards Act 2000 and wants to correct me than I’m all ears.

For me - 98 never presented any improvements in cars I’ve used and I’m ok using the fuel it was designed to use. 

Still not seeing anything that supports your claim though? Any publicly available reports from independent testing of fuel from retail sources?

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Yep, I'm thinking you can give us more info without identifying the person.

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22 minutes ago, trixie said:

Still not seeing anything that supports your claim though? Any publicly available reports from independent testing of fuel from retail sources?

Not specifically - I didn't ask for proof, I just know he knows what he is talking about. Sorry, like I said the lack of a standard is the main one for me.  https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2019L00455

This may well be a Mexican standoff of pers comms with out industry friend  :)

There is this from some time ago, wonder if its been done more recently - but back then there were some failures to comply. Cant see here though if 98 is tested to 98 or 95 standards though, or if its tested at all. It might not for a statutory test like this, they test to the standards and with no standard for 98...  https://www.environment.gov.au/protection/fuel-quality/compliance/monitoring/national-fuel-sampling-programme

Edited by Haakon

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So my reading from the testing is 91 RON returned 93.2 RON tested average?

95 RON returned tested 96.9 RON average?

Is that right?

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9 minutes ago, apple3337 said:

So my reading from the testing is 91 RON returned 93.2 RON tested average?

95 RON returned tested 96.9 RON average?

Is that right?

I’m not exactly sure, I’d be inclined to write to them and ask them how that works and if there is a more recent study...

Averaged results like that can have all manner of stories buried in them... Maybe they’re dumping 98 in the 95 bucket, maybe a few 91 pumps had been filled with 95 like our friend mentioned. Dunno. It certainly doesn’t help with 98 pumps specifically were tested at... 
 

Sorry, that’s all I got - I’m working off pers comms so you’ll have to make your own call on it. I’m a cynic about the marketing and mark up on “proprietary fuels” that are unregulated for any claims above 95 and the manufacturer of my cars spent millions on tuning my engine for the base 95. That’s good enough for me.

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I have log results from my car

In my car 98ron (except BP Ultimate) produces a lower timing error correction result than 95ron.  BP Ultimate produces the same results as 95ron.

Yes, my car has been mapped for 98ron, so I would expect that result.

But I have produced a measurable, repeatable difference between the two products.

The results from other cars may vary. I do know that ClioIII models have trouble cold starting on 98ron, and do run better on 95ron. Proven, and repeatable results once again.

Haakon. If you are happy running 95ron, go ahead and do that. The rest of us are free to waste the extra money if we like. I also prefer more expensive bottles of Shiraz but I am certain they would test the same as cheaper ones.

 

FUN FACT the new Mobil servo that has just opened around the corner from me doesn't sell 95ron. only 91ron or 98ron. but their price on 98 is the same as the 95 at both the Caltex and the BP down the road, so I am not actually paying any more. (And yes I get the same logs with Mobil and Caltex 98)

 

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36 minutes ago, Deet said:

I have log results from my car

In my car 98ron (except BP Ultimate) produces a lower timing error correction result than 95ron.  BP Ultimate produces the same results as 95ron.

Yes, my car has been mapped for 98ron, so I would expect that result.

But I have produced a measurable, repeatable difference between the two products.

The results from other cars may vary. I do know that ClioIII models have trouble cold starting on 98ron, and do run better on 95ron. Proven, and repeatable results once again.

Haakon. If you are happy running 95ron, go ahead and do that. The rest of us are free to waste the extra money if we like. I also prefer more expensive bottles of Shiraz but I am certain they would test the same as cheaper ones.

 

FUN FACT the new Mobil servo that has just opened around the corner from me doesn't sell 95ron. only 91ron or 98ron. but their price on 98 is the same as the 95 at both the Caltex and the BP down the road, so I am not actually paying any more. (And yes I get the same logs with Mobil and Caltex 98)

 

Never ever cheap out on Shiraz!! My god man, were not savages...
 

Never said they were the same - the additive packs on the proprietary blends will alone make some change to the way they operate (not always for the better as you note). I’m just saying they’re not worth it, and very few cars (such as yours) even need it. If it’s 96 octane that’s still a difference you’ll see on a computer log, but not convinced it’s worth the dollars - especially if you paid for 98.
 

And maybe some retailers are closer to 98 and if you’re tuned for it you’ll a difference. Stock road cars are not generally that sensitive and don’t see an advantage with fuels beyond what they’ve been mapped for.

Would be fun to some blind butt dyno testing :) Get your missus to randomly choose a grade to fill up with and not tell you.

Edited by Haakon

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14 hours ago, Haakon said:

 

Would be fun to some blind butt dyno testing :) Get your missus to randomly choose a grade to fill up with and not tell you.

Why use a butt dyno when there is documented evidence from real dynos. Paul from RStuners is fully aware of the variations between our fuels he has seen it in dyno logs from the tunes he has done of a few years across three states

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41 minutes ago, Deet said:

Why use a butt dyno when there is documented evidence from real dynos. Paul from RStuners is fully aware of the variations between our fuels he has seen it in dyno logs from the tunes he has done of a few years across three states

To see if there is an actual practical and useful difference - as opposed to a technical difference on paper. 

Does RS tuner test a sample for its octane number I wonder? 
 

meh. Petrol and internal combustion needs to be killed off anyway... Even if we did drag our fuel quality out of third world standards it’s still a shitty way of propelling a car....

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1 hour ago, eight said:

Merlot, Shiraz, same same...

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I’m not angry, just disappointed ☹️

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No need, just light hearted comment. Should have put some emoji

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Russians say that you need to crack bottle of vodka to come to conclusion

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19 minutes ago, eight said:

No need, just light hearted comment. Should have put some emoji

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Likewise 😋

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Ok, seems like I've stirred up a hornet nest. In the last month I've only bought fuel from Bp. I have averaged 11.2 lt per 100km. Now this is a daily drive of 22klms, 6 days a week. I have included dispatching the odd bogan with his atmo car who thinks he's got a chance! Will be doing 7/11 next. At spending $30 a week at BP, still need to reserch this further. Plus making bogans in there 6 cylinder feel inadequate. 

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On 16/11/2019 at 10:33 AM, Haakon said:

This is a good wrap up of the situation we are in at the moment. 66th in the world for fuel quality... Straya.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/16/wrong-turn-why-australias-vehicle-emissions-are-rising?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

You can read the internet reports all day, I'm a supporter of real life results from logs, I can only speak for BP ultimate, because that's what I mainly use, back then when my dad used to drive my car in Melbourne because I work in Sydney, he always used 95, had the same pointless argument with him because he was just like you without the fancy internet reports, did a log in my car with 95 and then did another log after 2 tanks of 98, there were difference in power and L/100km. There is no way to match the same power figure and AFR as UK's 98 without using actual 98 for the same tune.

Conclusion: assuming we all have renaultsport cars here, as the website name suggests, you've bought the wrong car if you're thinking about saving some money by using 95. Just go buy some ecoshitbox that will save you real money.

Edited by ravnj023
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6 hours ago, ravnj023 said:

You can read the internet reports all day, I'm a supporter of real life results from logs, I can only speak for BP ultimate, because that's what I mainly use, back then when my dad used to drive my car in Melbourne because I work in Sydney, he always used 95, had the same pointless argument with him because he was just like you without the fancy internet reports, did a log in my car with 95 and then did another log after 2 tanks of 98, there were difference in power and L/100km. There is no way to match the same power figure and AFR as UK's 98 without using actual 98 for the same tune.

Conclusion: assuming we all have renaultsport cars here, as the website name suggests, you've bought the wrong car if you're thinking about saving some money by using 95. Just go buy some ecoshitbox that will save you real money.

“Fancy internet reports”? Lol.  Sorry for bringing in broader issues of interest beyond consumers eking a few tenths out of their mass production consumers products. Your response suggests you didn’t read the link - it’s not about relative power and economy of grades...

And as we’ve discussed a few times, aside from anecdotes being relatively meaningless I didn’t say there was no difference, just not what’s on the tin. 

And not worth it... For me it’s just a car. I enjoy it for what it is, but don’t pretend it actually matters if it’s got 123.47kws or 126.62... 

Broader issues of car based pollution are of far more interest and importance, but alas are rarely thought about by the average consumer just wanting the latest shiny :(

Edited by Haakon

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1 hour ago, Haakon said:

“Fancy internet reports”? Lol.  Sorry for bringing in broader issues of interest beyond consumers eking a few tenths out of their mass production consumers products. Your response suggests you didn’t read the link - it’s not about relative power and economy of grades...

And as we’ve discussed a few times, aside from anecdotes being relatively meaningless I didn’t say there was no difference, just not what’s on the tin. 

And not worth it... For me it’s just a car. I enjoy it for what it is, but don’t pretend it actually matters if it’s got 123.47kws or 126.62... 

Broader issues of car based pollution are of far more interest and importance, but alas are rarely thought about by the average consumer just wanting the latest shiny :(

If you have bought an RS, then you got the wrong car. Pollution...😂 it may not sound politically correct,  RS car enthusiasts talking about gains, functional mods, tracktime here. But you're here talking about pollution. You remind me of her.

images (67).jpeg

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22 minutes ago, ravnj023 said:

If you have bought an RS, then you got the wrong car. Pollution...😂 it may not sound politically correct,  RS car enthusiasts talking about gains, functional mods, tracktime here. But you're here talking about pollution. You remind me of her.

images (67).jpeg

 

One can enjoy an RS and still be aware and considerate about minimising its impact. Whats "politically correct" (what does that even mean anyway?) got to do with anything? 

And thank you, I'll take that as a compliment. She is a very smart person and justified in feeling a bit peeved with the state of things.

You remind me of Jeremy Clarkson... 

Edited by Haakon
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3 hours ago, Haakon said:

 

One can enjoy an RS and still be aware and considerate about minimising its impact. Whats "politically correct" (what does that even mean anyway?) got to do with anything? 

And thank you, I'll take that as a compliment. She is a very smart person and justified in feeling a bit peeved with the state of things.

You remind me of Jeremy Clarkson... 

I think I'll be Jeremy clarkson, and you can be her😂 

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2 minutes ago, ravnj023 said:

I think I'll be Jeremy clarkson, and you can be her😂 

That sounds like an insight into your private life I think I’ll pass on asking for an explanation of...

I’m just happy to respect Greta’s intellect and passion, and despair of Clarkson’s ignorant dog whistling drivel...

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1 hour ago, eight said:

This thread is going in wrong direction emoji3544.png

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Yep... To summarise - paying extra for 98 has marginal and sometimes no benefit. It is a heavily marketed and partially unregulated product that has high profit margins. Makes Clio3 grumpy when cold.

Some gains on some retailers product has been noted, although often it needs an ecu log to spot it. 

Many cars it makes no difference to whatsoever... 

Edited by Haakon
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Well, FWIW, I have fuel logbooks covering my old BMW M135i, our X1 25i, the Trophy-R and my Pug 308 GTi.

 

Of these, the M135i had four 95 fills, the X1 8, the T-R 2 and none so far for the Pug — all when 98 was not available (X1 does most country travel, obviously). In all instances, the fill was 35+L. Every use of 98 delivers (ooops) LOWER fuel consumption, in some cases by 5% and a worst case of 7% in the M135i. But a bigger effect is the lethargic nature of the cars, which I’ve felt every time.

 

That’s the data. Apparently, data beats opinion.

 

Why does@Haakon have to add a political angle to every thread he posts? Perhaps his RS is broken down? Or perhaps he doesn’t own one?

 

 

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46 minutes ago, ttimbo said:

 

Why does@Haakon have to add a political angle to every thread he posts? Perhaps his RS is broken down? Or perhaps he doesn’t own one?

 

have we seem any pictures?

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*this is not a last word...

Not political, more observations on what I’d have thought were interesting issues surrounding the product in question. 

Ex sporty Reno owner, current owner of a boring Reno. Sporty is currently handled by the Guilietta. 
 

@ttimbo is that a typo, higher consumption on 98? 

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4 hours ago, ttimbo said:

Every use of 98 delivers higher fuel consumption

 

 

That is interesting. Must be the difference in weather, since it is the opposite of my experience. I haven't crunched data on $/km to see if the extra mileage is worth it though. I tend to use 98 for the detergent package and headroom on hot days rather than performance.

 

And your experience of less performance is opposite too. I have had days on motorbikes where a fresh fill with 95 halfway through the day made the return journey scary with no power and jerkiness. And one day with a 91 fill in Monto where we struggled to overtake semis going uphill! That day sucked!

 

James

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Sorry — typo — lower fuel consumption!

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34 minutes ago, ttimbo said:

Sorry — typo — lower fuel consumption! emoji3526.png

As Paul explained it to me. 
whenever knocking goes above a certain level the ECU dumps extra fuel into the cylinders to protect the engine. This makes the car feel sluggish and increases fuel consumption 

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2 hours ago, Haakon said:

Ex sporty Reno owner, current owner of a boring Reno. 
@ttimbo

So you don’t actually own a RenaultSport model. So therefore everything you have posted in this thread is purely conjecture on your part. You have no idea what you are actually talking about when if comes to these cars 

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23 minutes ago, Deet said:

So you don’t actually own a RenaultSport model. So therefore everything you have posted in this thread is purely conjecture on your part. You have no idea what you are actually talking about when if comes to these cars 

I don’t own one currently. But the F4RT in particular is a very conventional engine design and there’s nothing particularly unique about it. I currently own an F4R that’s just missing the hairdryer...

Edited by Haakon

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10 minutes ago, Haakon said:

I don’t own one currently. But the F4RT in particular is a very conventional engine design and there’s nothing particularly unique about it. I currently own an F4R that’s just missing the hairdryer...

So you admit you aren't in a position to comment regarding the performance of any of the RenaultSport models with various fuels?

All your comments are based on what you may remember inaccurately.

Or on another make of car, or on a normally aspirated, non-performance Renault engine.

 

I leave you to attempt to again justify yourself by having the last say.

 

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10 minutes ago, Deet said:

So you admit you aren't in a position to comment regarding the performance of any of the RenaultSport models with various fuels?

All your comments are based on what you may remember inaccurately.

Or on another make of car, or on a normally aspirated, non-performance Renault engine.

 

I leave you to attempt to again justify yourself by having the last say.

 

Meh. Thought it was clear my points were not brand specific. Do with it what you will. 

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1 minute ago, Haakon said:

Meh. Thought it was clear my points were not brand specific. Do with it what you will. 

i am already ignoring everything you say. I just want to make it clear to anyone else on this thread that your opinion may not carry any weight at all

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14 minutes ago, Deet said:

i am already ignoring everything you say. I just want to make it clear to anyone else on this thread that your opinion may not carry any weight at all

Lol. Ok. Mind you, RS cars all use Nissan engines these days ;) Just saying. 

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28 minutes ago, Haakon said:

Lol. Ok. Mind you, RS cars all use Nissan engines these days ;) Just saying. 

Apart from the detuned 1.6T in the Joke, there's nothing in the current Nissan Aus range that is "shared" with the current RS range (oh, there may be some basic hardware -- block etc, but noting tuned as in the RS range)

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8 minutes ago, ttimbo said:

Apart from the detuned 1.6T in the Joke, there's nothing in the current Nissan Aus range that is "shared" with the current RS range (oh, there may be some basic hardware -- block etc, but noting tuned as in the RS range)

I know, just having a dig ;) Car industry these days is more differentiated by very minor differences. Modern engine design is pretty refined and there's bugger all in it between brands (even the brand that don't straight up share components) in the scheme of things. Its a really interesting industry though, looking past the consumerism and sales pitches, the engineering and business aspects at a high level are cool. 

You can tell the Japanese connection on an RS280 just by the Japanese style bolts on the engine... 

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