Driving Style

[Johnathon]

Hey Everyone,

I'm looking for a new car and have been doing research on the 265's and 275's for a couple of weeks. At the moment I'm leaning towards the 275 Premium.

Previous performance type cars are Datsun 1200 Ute with a Nissan CA18DET enigine, not front or rear end grip, no driver aids = death trap. Currently I have a 2011 WRX with a few mods. But looking for something different and something to chance done all my mates Jap cars.

My question is how much will I need to change the way I drive moving from RWD and AWD to FWD? 

Also what makes everyone prefer the RS cars over other makes and models?

Any feedback would help a lot.

Cheers and thanks for reading.

Johnathon 

 

 

[chuckovski]

Welcome, great choice by the way!

It's hard to say really, but as an example, I was at a track day on Friday where I sat in an m140i (with optioned rear LSD) and the driver sat with me. Some corners we had different lines, different grip etc. Complicated by the power differential! But the same could be said about the Clio III in front of me, which is also front wheel drive.

 

The main thing really is the magic of the front LSD and powering out of most corners a lot earlier than RWD cars can without losing grip (in fact it seems to grip more).

 

AWD I couldn't comment on, as I've only ever driven a golf R 7 which I hear is quite different from most AWD cars. It is bloody quick but less engaging.

 

I think good on you for mixing it up - nothing like doing what you're doing to keep on learning!

 

 

[vaughan]

1 minute ago, chuckovski said:

the Clio III in front of me, which is also rear wheel drive

You mean FWD, right?

[chuckovski]

You mean FWD, right?

Haha yes, it wasn't a special Clio III V6!
Fixed.

I should also mention the lift-off oversteer you can get and make good use of in regards to getting around a corner faster, and the predictably unstable rear end which is playful and feels (no idea if it actually is) faster.

[slippers]

my 265 was the first FWD car I have owned and I had to adjust to the lift off over steer. Not a huge adjustment but the first time you are mid corner and lift of the pedal can take you by surprise if you're not expecting it.

[speedfiend41]

I’m on my third Renault Megane - an 08 R26, a 2012 RS265 8.08 and my current Trophy R. I did my first Mt Alma hill climb in the R26 in 2014 and won my standard road registered 2000 to 4000cc class, beating amongst others, an M5 and quite a few WRXs and Evos in the other classes and on the weekend I did it again in my TR.  

 

The only road registered car of any class that beat my Megane was an AMG SLR. I also knocked off two thirds of the 120 car field - not bad for a standard car against heavily modded AWDs at a renowned power hill climb.

These cars absolutely rock. Once you get past first gear you can forget about what wheels are putting the power down. They go round corners with incredible grip and balance. The only adjustment you’d need to make is learning to start putting the power down early in the corner. At Mt Alma, the second corner is a really steep, sharp right. As soon as I entered, I’m on the gas in second and it just hauls through.

For the money you’ll spend, you get an incredible car, loaded with options and great engineering. I bought mine because under the 50 k I wanted to spend, there was nothing that came close to the way the Meganes go round corners - except a Clio. These cars are brilliant.

Get one!

[No152]

Welcome to the forum.  Good choices in what you are looking at, you will have a heap of fun in the Megane.  As Speedfiend said above, the best and most engaging drive you can buy for the money, even for significantly more money.  If you are buying used, the value equation for the Megane is bordering on criminal - they are that good.

I have owned and driven most of what you are considering, so I can offer some feedback that might help you.  I am familiar with what a worked CA18DET is capable of (I had a worked clubman with one of these - rear wheel drive madness running E85 only.  So much fun).  Others relevant to the discussion include a couple of Clios, Megane Trophy R and lightly modded Mk7 Golf R.

Firstly, lets get the power discussion out of the way.  As your beasts have been various iterations of turboed this or that, if you are used to that shove in the back, then a Clio, while maybe almost as quick on the track, is simply an order of magnitude slower in most road driving.  By way of example, my first Renault was a Trophy R (a little spoiled there), so anything compared with that is quite simply less.  It just is.  I bought both a 182 and a Clio III (Angel and Demon), and found the absence of a turbo and LSD really made the Megane feel supercar connected by comparison, in every way.  A Clio III with a Quaiffe would be a great thing, but then would feel slow pulling out of the bends.  For outright power and acceleration, the Golf R is a bolt of lightning - way quicker than anything else on a real world road, even the Trophy R.  As the roads get tighter and rougher, the Golf R just gets faster and more glued to the tarmac.  No understeer ever, and limits that are bordering on stratospheric. But (and it's a very large BUT), the Golf R simply isn't as much fun to drive as the Trophy R.  What the surrender monkeys really got right in the T-R is driver engagement.  Much has been said about that on this forum, and it's real.  The Trophy R with its reduced weight, no sound deadening and all the rest means you can feel (and hear) every pebble on the road, and the tyres are virtually hard-wired to your brain.  The sticky tyres, perfohub and LSD mean that cornering is a complete giggle.  Lift-off oversteer is the norm, or neutral handling up to the point of the limit, which is very high.  Add in the drama of the Recaro seats, manual gearbox, brembos etc... you have the complete driver package that you can also take shopping.  A 265 is significantly heavier than the Trophy R, and you can feel this by way of a less-involved drive, but some judicious weight saving and a tune goes a long way to solving this, it just won't be as raw as a Trophy R, which is pretty much "race car".  If that's what you want, and don't need rear seats, get one of them.  Everything said on here about them is real.  I'd still have mine if I could convince SWMBO to part with the kids... 

So, to summarise all that (sorry about all the words, but hope it helps you), the Golf R (with a moderate tune) is the fastest on real roads full stop.  If the road is wet, the margin is even more significant.  Handling is superb and grip levels so high, that it borders on boring unless you are seriously at risk of spending time with the constabulary and taking the bus to work.  The Megane, although FWD, is predictable and direct up to significant limits and is a hoot in the corners like few others.  Don't worry about the FWD and driving style as the adjustment is very easy.  Wet roads obviously reduce the grip, and increase the fun, but amazing all the same.  You can still very easily lose your license with one of these too...

Clios do all the above like the Megane just at lower speeds, but for me, the power rush is missing.  Others have different views on this, but that is my experience of the types of cars in your sights.

Hope it helps, and hopefully you will go the Megane path.  Get a used one, depreciation on new ones is butt-bleeding, making used version amazing value.

[Johnathon]

Thanks everyone for your info and opinions, greatly appreciated.

11 hours ago, No152 said:

 The Trophy R with its reduced weight, no sound deadening and all the rest means you can feel (and hear) every pebble on the road, and the tyres are virtually hard-wired to your brain.  The sticky tyres, perfohub and LSD mean that cornering is a complete giggle.  Lift-off oversteer is the norm, or neutral handling up to the point of the limit, which is very high.  Add in the drama of the Recaro seats, manual gearbox, brembos etc... you have the complete driver package that you can also take shopping. 

No152 - The Trophy R dose look very tempting but my budget won't stretch that far. Plus I have a little daughter and if the daily ever breaks down I will have to squeeze and baby seat in the back. 

I super keen to see what this amazing LSD is all about. Have limited knowledge of FWD to begin with it's hard for me to comprehend the hype surrounding the LSD without experiencing it, even after watching about a hours worth of YouTube videos.

13 hours ago, speedfiend41 said:

I’m on my third Renault Megane - an 08 R26, a 2012 RS265 8.08 and my current Trophy R. I did my first Mt Alma hill climb in the R26 in 2014 and won my standard road registered 2000 to 4000cc class, beating amongst others, an M5 and quite a few WRXs and Evos in the other classes and on the weekend I did it again in my TR.  

The only road registered car of any class that beat my Megane was an AMG SLR. I also knocked off two thirds of the 120 car field - not bad for a standard car against heavily modded AWDs at a renowned power hill climb.

These cars absolutely rock. Once you get past first gear you can forget about what wheels are putting the power down. They go round corners with incredible grip and balance. The only adjustment you’d need to make is learning to start putting the power down early in the corner. At Mt Alma, the second corner is a really steep, sharp right. As soon as I entered, I’m on the gas in second and it just hauls through.

Speedfiend41 - The Hillclimb result is very impressive, I hear Mt Alma is a challenging track.

Adjusting and learning to accelerate sooner I'm sure I will get used to over time and experiance. Having a car that is well balanced and something that loves corners is what has got me looking for a Megane. Going fast in a straight line is great but for me only in small doses. I'm struggling to find reasons why not to make the switch, there doesn't seem to be a bad article, video or review. Well none I can find anyway.

Again thanks for all the info and if there is anything else you can pass on please do.

[rob 240]

You won’t regret it . The RS factory gets it right first time so you don’t have to “mod” all the time to get it right like you do with JDM ( my old Evo was modded too far 😃 ) 

just enjoy the engagement. 

[chuckovski]

BTW plenty of room in the rear for kids

[No152]

11 hours ago, Johnathon said:

No152 - The Trophy R dose look very tempting but my budget won't stretch that far. Plus I have a little daughter and if the daily ever breaks down I will have to squeeze and baby seat in the back. 

I super keen to see what this amazing LSD is all about. Have limited knowledge of FWD to begin with it's hard for me to comprehend the hype surrounding the LSD without experiencing it, even after watching about a hours worth of YouTube videos.

I understand this requirement sadly.  The T-R is next level, but the other variants are very, very good out of the box, and spectacular with just minor and completely safe modification.  The best way to describe the driving sensation with the LSD and perfohub arrangement is that as you dial in the power (earlier towards the apex the better) power is delivered to the outer front wheel which bites in and "pulls" the outer corner of the car around the corner on line.  It is an awesome sensation which you can really feel (especially if you drive a non-LSD front driver back to back with a Meg), and this allows spectacularly high cornering speeds once you learn to trust it - which takes very little time at all, as it is all very neutral up to the limits.

Megs benefit from sticky, good quality tyres, which do two things in regards to the above - they increase the capacity (and confidence) of the front end pulling around from the outside to stay on line, plus they allow the tail moving outwards in this situation to occur very progressively (yep, inducing oversteer while still under power in a corner without lifting off is possible with a Meg 3 and can be done on wet roads at respectable speeds to hone your skills), all the while being very controllable.  The only thing not controllable when this happens is the grin you will have.  If you are not giggling like a school girl after a spirited drive in a well set up Meg, you don't have a pulse!

My suggestion is to go and drive a few and experience it for real yourself.  I suggest driving one with a tune if possible, because (in my experience - remembering my first Renault was a Trophy R) I feel the 250/265 is still a little heavy for the power in standard guise, so the slightly more power/slightly less weight balance is noticeable in these cars.  In any event, you will get the feel of the LSD and perfohub arrangement, and know what I a on about above.

Oh, and push the "Sport" button.  A must do.  I once drove my T-R in normal mode, but only did that once.  can't even remember now what it was like.  Sport mode always on...

Good luck.

[chuckovski]

Where are you located? If you want a drive in mine and you're near the Illawarra let me know

[No152]

21 minutes ago, chuckovski said:

Where are you located? If you want a drive in mine and you're near the Illawarra let me know

He's in Adelaide.  If you ask Speedfiend really nicely, you might get spoiled and be allowed to trial a Trophy R.

Be warned - it will ruin you. 

[Mase]

..and Mr Fiend can drive [emoji106] I’ve tried to follow him


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[No152]

7 minutes ago, Mase said:

..and Mr Fiend can drive I’ve tried to follow him

The amount of brass in the trophy cabinet from hillclimb success attests to this!

[speedfiend41]

19 minutes ago, No152 said:

He's in Adelaide.  If you ask Speedfiend really nicely, you might get spoiled and be allowed to trial a Trophy R.

Be warned - it will ruin you. 

Drive MY car? 🤯🤯🤯 I’ll take him for a spin in it...

 

Theres a 265 for sale at a dealer in Adelaide - I’d definitely recommend taking it for a test drive.

 

Mase - you’re too kind. You were in a 172 after all!

[Mase]

Nothing too shabby about a well driven 172 [emoji106] lol


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[chuckovski]

He's in Adelaide.  If you ask Speedfiend really nicely, you might get spoiled and be allowed to trial a Trophy R.
Be warned - it will ruin you. [emoji3]

Yeah might be a bit far!

[aress]

If you have kids and/or your pockets don't extend that far then ignore all the hyperbole on the T-R. And don't bother actually trying one, it will spoil you for all others. Personally I'd give my left testicle for a T-R but for myself and most other people in the hot hatch market it's hugely restricted by its seating configuration, and to realise its full potential it relies on the Cup 2 tyres which are an added compromise. A brilliant weekend toy - one of the best you can get - but your circumstances really need to accommodate it. For me this is the reason why the T-R can't be the best ever hot-hatch (an accolade that surely must go to a car which retains the inherent practicalities of a hatchback. FWIW a 275 optioned with the Ohlins suspension (as available in other markets but not Oz) would probably take my vote for that prize, and an example in that exact spec - with Cup 2s - was measurably faster around Anglesea circuit in the UK than a Golf R in the hands of EVO magazine. But I digress). 

It's difficult to explain or describe a driving experience so I can only echo No152's advice, which is to buy a Golf R and... shit - no, sorry, I meant get out and drive some examples of the Meg 3 and judge for yourself. Remember though that pussy-foot around in any Meg 3 and you'll step out underwhelmed. It doesn't do the instant gratification that some others in this market segment do so well. You do need to push it to appreciate what it can do. 

Go, experiment, have fun. Report back. 

[Johnathon]

8 hours ago, chuckovski said:

Where are you located? If you want a drive in mine and you're near the Illawarra let me know

 

7 hours ago, speedfiend41 said:

Drive MY car? 🤯🤯🤯 I’ll take him for a spin in it...

 

Theres a 265 for sale at a dealer in Adelaide - I’d definitely recommend taking it for a test drive.

 

Mase - you’re too kind. You were in a 172 after all!

Hahaha yeah I'm in Adelaide.

I'm a firm believer in not driving other people cars unless there is a situation where you have no choice. It's not something I enjoy. Some of my mates think I don't like their cars because I don't want to drive it.

I have seen the 265 for sale, so I will head down on the weekend and check it out. I won't buy it because I think I'm set on the 275 Prem. Those Recaro's and exhaust have sucked me in. I still have to sell my WRX but I think I will be heading interstate to find one, but if any of the SA people see one up from grab some let me know. I have alerts set on  Carsales.

10 hours ago, No152 said:

Megs benefit from sticky, good quality tyres, which do two things in regards to the above - they increase the capacity (and confidence) of the front end pulling around from the outside to stay on line, plus they allow the tail moving outwards in this situation to occur very progressively (yep, inducing oversteer while still under power in a corner without lifting off is possible with a Meg 3 and can be done on wet roads at respectable speeds to hone your skills), all the while being very controllable.  The only thing not controllable when this happens is the grin you will have.  If you are not giggling like a school girl after a spirited drive in a well set up Meg, you don't have a pulse!

My suggestion is to go and drive a few and experience it for real yourself.  I suggest driving one with a tune if possible, because (in my experience - remembering my first Renault was a Trophy R) I feel the 250/265 is still a little heavy for the power in standard guise, so the slightly more power/slightly less weight balance is noticeable in these cars.  In any event, you will get the feel of the LSD and perfohub arrangement, and know what I a on about above.

Thank again 152. the car won't be driven heaps, but I feel once I get my hands on one I will clock quit a few km's to get used to what the car can do, and my driving limits. 

Im all for the first mod being sticky tyres and probably new pads. After having the WRX for a while the difference in what the car is capable of with a good set of tread is next level.

2 hours ago, aress said:

If you have kids and/or your pockets don't extend that far then ignore all the hyperbole on the T-R. And don't bother actually trying one, it will spoil you for all others. Personally I'd give my left testicle for a T-R but for myself and most other people in the hot hatch market it's hugely restricted by its seating configuration, and to realise its full potential it relies on the Cup 2 tyres which are an added compromise. A brilliant weekend toy - one of the best you can get - but your circumstances really need to accommodate it. For me this is the reason why the T-R can't be the best ever hot-hatch (an accolade that surely must go to a car which retains the inherent practicalities of a hatchback. FWIW a 275 optioned with the Ohlins suspension (as available in other markets but not Oz) would probably take my vote for that prize, and an example in that exact spec - with Cup 2s - was measurably faster around Anglesea circuit in the UK than a Golf R in the hands of EVO magazine. But I digress). 

It's difficult to explain or describe a driving experience so I can only echo No152's advice, which is to buy a Golf R and... shit - no, sorry, I meant get out and drive some examples of the Meg 3 and judge for yourself. Remember though that pussy-foot around in any Meg 3 and you'll step out underwhelmed. It doesn't do the instant gratification that some others in this market segment do so well. You do need to push it to appreciate what it can do. 

Go, experiment, have fun. Report back. 

Thanks aress, there isn't many examples for Sale in SA and dont think there is many Golf R's for me to compare against either 😜

But will keep an eye out and track one down eventually, if that means going interstate then so be it.

 

 

 

[LJ1981]

I got 265, it’s amazing car, I use to have Honda type Rs before and I don’t regret going for RS, it’s great fun, took me a while to get used to lower revs (6500rpm) compared to my EP3R and S2000 (9000rpm) but after stage1 tune it can go 7K so it’s ok. It’s very enjoyable car to drive,  with RS mode it’s pretty mental especially since I got tune done so it’s pushing 450nm of torque and 206kw@wheels, it handles extremely well and gets you very involved, I’ve driven golfs R and Gti, subaru’s, they are all fast cars but the feeling you get in RS is level up from the rest.

 

ps I got two baby seats at back so it’s kids friendly 😜

[chuckovski]

I got 265, it’s amazing car, I use to have Honda type Rs before and I don’t regret going for RS, it’s great fun, took me a while to get used to lower revs (6500rpm) compared to my EP3R and S2000 (9000rpm) but after stage1 tune it can go 7K so it’s ok. It’s very enjoyable car to drive,  with RS mode it’s pretty mental especially since I got tune done so it’s pushing 450nm of torque and 206kw@wheels, it handles extremely well and gets you very involved, I’ve driven golfs R and Gti, subaru’s, they are all fast cars but the feeling you get in RS is level up from the rest.
 
ps I got two baby seats at back so it’s kids friendly [emoji12]

Wow have you got a build thread? That kind of power sounds pretty insane

[LJ1981]

No build tread, it’s just stage1 tune with couple of other things, nothing spectacular hehe

[tmurph]

Well that isn't it. 

I only have one gripe with my Meg and that is that the noise it makes is kind of shit.

 

[LJ1981]

I love the sound my meg makes, it’s just perfect 👌 

[aress]

1 hour ago, LJ1981 said:

I got 265, it’s amazing car, I use to have Honda type Rs before and I don’t regret going for RS, it’s great fun, took me a while to get used to lower revs (6500rpm) compared to my EP3R and S2000 (9000rpm) but after stage1 tune it can go 7K so it’s ok. It’s very enjoyable car to drive,  with RS mode it’s pretty mental especially since I got tune done so it’s pushing 450nm of torque and 206kw@wheels, it handles extremely well and gets you very involved, I’ve driven golfs R and Gti, subaru’s, they are all fast cars but the feeling you get in RS is level up from the rest.

 

ps I got two baby seats at back so it’s kids friendly 😜

Wow, where did you get 450nm and 206kw atw with a stage one tune? That's a massive step up from my stage one. What tune do you have? 

[LJ1981]

It’s custom stage1 tune, done at Etuners Motorsport 

[Johnathon]

2 hours ago, LJ1981 said:

I got 265, it’s amazing car, I use to have Honda type Rs before and I don’t regret going for RS, it’s great fun, took me a while to get used to lower revs (6500rpm) compared to my EP3R and S2000 (9000rpm) but after stage1 tune it can go 7K so it’s ok. It’s very enjoyable car to drive,  with RS mode it’s pretty mental especially since I got tune done so it’s pushing 450nm of torque and 206kw@wheels, it handles extremely well and gets you very involved, I’ve driven golfs R and Gti, subaru’s, they are all fast cars but the feeling you get in RS is level up from the rest.

ps I got two baby seats at back so it’s kids friendly 😜

206kws is a good result for a Stage 1, and good to hear there is room for the rug rats👍

 

[Dbesdad]

No build tread, it’s just stage1 tune with couple of other things, nothing spectacular hehe

What are the other bits and pieces?


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[PaulD]

Well that isn't it. 
I only have one gripe with my Meg and that is that the noise it makes is kind of sh*t.
 

I thought the same and happy to report that a Milltek non resonated solved the problem. Nice bark and quiet at normal speeds. No drone. Plenty of crackle in sport mode.


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[LJ1981]

1 hour ago, Dbesdad said:

What are the other bits and pieces?


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BCM air filter (soundproofing removed from box), res delete and it’s lowered on H&R springs

Edited 27, April 2018 by LJ1981

[PaulD]

BCM air filter (soundproofing removed from box), res delete and it’s lowered on H&R springs

How are the springs? Smoother than stock?


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[LJ1981]

20 hours ago, PaulD said:

How are the springs? Smoother than stock?


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I find them pretty similar, maybe a bit harder on really bumpy roads